"Listen to your heart and become yourself..."
Vision, mission, BHAG, northern, values, goals, processes ... You have everything set and yet your company is struggling? And is it because you have forgotten those who are supposed to bring it all to life? Your people?
Especially in technical companies, this is not such an exception. All the precepts of a successful business are formally perfectly fulfilled. It's just that because a lot of us techies are more numbers- oriented than people-oriented, we have trouble actually getting them to work. Because numbers are easier than people. And we've usually spent several years of our studies working with numbers. But they didn't tell us anything about people. We didn't usually get any instruction on them anywhere.
But if we can't motivate, lead, manage our own people well... we're putting pounds of unnecessary sand between the engine and the gearbox of our own company. Then things creak all over the place, and we have hidden costs in our company that we sometimes have no idea about.
That's why I invited someone to the studio who is servicing human souls in a corporate environment today and every day. Someone who can suck the aforementioned sand away and properly lubricate the entire machine of your business. Tom Sova, CEO of Cognitio-Scan s.r.o., will tell us how to do it. We discussed ...
🔸 What are the hidden costs of doing business?
🔸 Where are the causes of hidden costs?
🔸 How to eliminate hidden costs?
🔸 What does proper communication look like?
🔸 How to determine how effective the communication was?
HOW TO ELIMINATE HIDDEN COSTS OF DOING BUSINESS (INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT)
Guest introduction
Martin Hurych
Hello. I'm Martin Hurych and this is another Ignition. Before I show you today's guest, I have one request. If you've seen any Ignition at any point before this episode and anything stuck in your mind or you liked something, please subscribe. You won't miss any more episodes and you'll help me navigate the social media algorithms more smoothly, which will help me invite great guests like tonight's. Today we're going to look at people. We talk a lot here about strategies, KPIs, visions, missions, company values, and results, but we forget a little bit about the in-between, the gear between what we want and what we achieve. For this talk, I've invited Tom Sova. Hi, Tom.
Tom Sova
Hi, Martin.
What has rowing given and taken away from him?
Martin Hurych
Tom is the CEO of Cognitio-Scan. You are the first former rower in this chair, the first former member of the Dutch national rowing team. I think we're going to have a lot of fun today, so I'm going to start from the other end. What was the most annoying thing about rowing?
Tom Sova
The training, it was so hard, I always sweated so much and everything hurt, my whole body. We constantly needed to be ready for the hardest workout you can imagine, but on the other hand, it made me face a lot in life.
Martin Hurych
Does that mean you can't get results without training?
Tom Sova
In sports, as a young person, you develop discipline, determination, determination, drive. Those are the things you need in life. I still remember one time my coach told me if that's all I was going to give him. I thought I'd already given it all, so he got me even more fired up and I threw my sabre in that boat. But only then did I know what it meant to reach for the bottom.
Martin Hurych
We're roughly the same generation, do you think the younger ones are like that? Because I see a lot of them around me, that they reach puberty and then a lot of them drop the sport.
Tom Sova
Fortunately, they don't. Our generation has it completely different. We just needed that pull on the goal and we kept working, working, working, but the question is to what extent our generation was able to enjoy that life and not just chase each other around like a hamster. The younger generation has it completely different and we could learn a lot from that.
How did he get to Cognitio-Scan s.r.o.?
Martin Hurych
Come tell us about the journey from the rowboat to your current company.
Tom Sova
The rowboats were a bit of a stop-gap. I was studying at a naval college in Holland at the time, because I was in the class of 1968 and my parents had emigrated, preceded by a year in Vienna in a refugee camp. I grew up there where I could absorb a completely different culture, approach to life, different values, attitudes, a different form of communication. In my final year I needed to do an internship and I did that internship in Germany at a refinery in Karlsruhe. When I was doing the internship, I thought I didn't want to go back to finish my studies, so I moved to the Czech Republic. My family didn't know about it for the first six months.
Then I started my own business and created an IT company. That was a company I did with my dad and that company got pretty big pretty quickly, we had over 200 consultants and over 5 offices at one point. I never went back to school after that, but the first employees I hired were professors from the computer science department at the University of Economics, who we then went with to Temelin and various other projects. I worked with my father like that for 10 years.
Then we broke up and I went back to Holland where I worked as director of new business development in media, at Endemol, and I got into a bit of a midlife crisis. I started to think about what my life's mission is, who I am and what I want to leave behind. So I started looking and at some point I said to myself, I've been leading people all my life, I love people, I coach people, I train people, so why not become a teacher. That totally rocked my world because I had a limiting belief before that if you can't do anything, you go teach. So that was kind of a struggle with myself and then I built my first training center from that. Slowly but surely, that's what my wife and I have developed, and now there are 7 of us. It takes a long time because we have high quality standards before we even let anyone in to see a client. This is how we developed Cognitio-Scan.
How did emigration affect Tom?
Martin Hurych
A lot of people in their 30s, 35s listen to us, you can see it in all the stats that this podcast has. These people have absolutely no idea what the 1968 vintage is anymore. We're not going to substitute a history lesson here, but since you're digging into other people, you're definitely digging into yourself. How did those years of not being anchored in a country, being in a refugee camp for a while, then your parents building a whole new life somewhere else affect you? How do you translate that in yourself, what did it give you, what did it take away?
Tom Sova
I thought it took a lot out of me at first because I went to private schools, for example, where I was among kids who had a lot more. I had a deep sense of inferiority there, but at a certain point, when I started to take responsibility for my own life, I started to realize that the Russian invasion brought an awful lot into that life. Otherwise I would never have had the experiences I had. It's moved me to where I am now. It's also the thing that I'm most proud of in my life, that I've always taken my own path, I've always sought out the more difficult path. I even went bankrupt once in Holland, that's when my whole world came crashing down, I lost my baby that I was taking care of, but I told myself I had to move on. I'm a positive person and I also like that positive mindset, which is not always focused on results and KPIs, but who you want to become in this life to be happy.
What does he need to prove to himself?
Martin Hurych
Don't you need to prove to yourself that you can do it? You said at one point that you were alone with some of the better kids. That's the kind of moment that starts the engine, that you need to prove you're as good as someone else.
Tom Sova
I'm gonna color it even more. For example, one of the reasons why I had a great feeling of inferiority is the following. We used to go swimming in the pool in Holland instead of gym class. I don't know how it is here in the Czech Republic, but in Holland the guys in the shower compare who has it the longest and I didn't win, so I started to prove myself. That was the driving force, very tiring by the way, there was also a period when I started drinking to compensate. I needed to turn over a new leaf because I wanted to be happy, I wanted to be free and alcohol couldn't solve that.
What are the hidden costs of doing business?
Martin Hurych
I would like to start by talking about what we agreed to talk about here and what we are going to discuss. I said in the introduction that we talk a lot about these semi-hard things, that you're supposed to have a strategy, you're supposed to have some values, visions, missions that you attach your people to. There's not a lot of talk about that gear from intent to results, and that's people. The topic of this podcast is sunk costs and how to eliminate them. What are sunk costs to you?
Tom Sova
Let's use a concrete example. If we look from a KPI perspective at the sales funnel, there's conversion. If you have a bad conversion, you have 30 visits and one deal, you need to look at how effective that person is and how do we need to change that conversion. Is it in dealing with the client, is it in processing the offer, is it in presenting? That's one form of hidden cost. Let's look at corporations, how many people are there at a meeting where you say to yourself towards the end of the meeting, what was the point of it in the first place. In a good case, we have a fruitful meeting, but towards the end we make an inventory of what all we need to do, these to-do lists, and it still doesn't get done.We're doing it the same way we've been doing it. This is the second form of hidden costs. The third form of hidden costs is, for example, people who are on sick leave. When I see somewhere in society that people are very sick, something is wrong. A final example of those hidden costs is in a chain in a marketing organization, for example, where you're passing information from the client to the creative side.There are so many iterations going on where the client is unhappy, where we need to adjust something, and so on. Those constant iterations are very inefficient processes and that's all hidden costs.
Where are the causes of hidden costs?
Martin Hurych
What connects these things? What do you think is the coal face, where is the cause of the hidden
costs?
Tom Sova
Two things are absolutely essential here. Point 1 is communication and point 2 is relationships. Your success is based on the relationship you have with your employees, with your clients and also with your suppliers. It's about being able to effectively communicate your needs, your wants, your desires and knowing how to articulate that so that we can be effective, so that there can be alignment, there can be mutual understanding.
What does proper communication look like?
Martin Hurych
You teach communication. I often hear bad communication, but dramatically fewer people will say what good communication should look like. What are a few points you would cut out here as a guide to effective communication?
Tom Sova
Let's first talk about what communication is. There is no one who is stupid who doesn't get it, there are only bad communicators who have failed to articulate their needs or enthuse or motivate or inspire the other. We define communication as achieving a desired outcome independent of one's intent. In every communication, you have an intention, that's what you want. I want to enthuse, I want to motivate, for example, or I want anything else. This is also true in private, I want closeness or I want love or I want to have quality time. As a communicator, I need to know what I want first. Most of the time people have no idea what they want and then the communication takes place and towards the end something happens, the desired result is achieved. Does the person get going, does the person understand me, is the person excited, does the person then give me feedback? That's the result, that's what I'm getting, and at that given moment, when the intention is in line with what I'm getting, effective communication happens.
There are 8 basic points that we need to follow in communication, they are not linear. First we need to set the intention and the context of what we are going to talk about. In companies we also call it an agenda, where I share my expectations, where I share my intent and what I actually want. Most of the time people are afraid to share their expectations, their intentions and they keep those cards on their chest. But then that can't lead to effective communication. When you go to parties and you're standing there with that Coca-Cola in the corner somewhere and you're not sharing your intention and the girls are on the other side, you're scared, you're insecure, the first step is to say what your intention is in the first place.
Then we need to tune in to each other and there are a number of communication techniques for that. You need to create an atmosphere of trust where, on the basis of equivalence, optimal communication can take place. This usually falls with a whole variety of different business negotiation trainings that are geared towards winning. That's not how we work because it's based on fear.
Then you need to share, that's the third step, what it is that I want and find in that, get the information that the other person wants too, so that we can define together what we've got. But how do you achieve that social flow, that social desired outcome? I'll give one example here specifically. How can we work together in a team to solve a problem together? That's a big challenge for most people. Then people start to chase each other's egos in there and start to either dominate or withdraw into themselves and there can never be a tuning in with each other.
This is the fourth step, how you can arrive at that definition of the common desired outcome that we want to achieve. Then we have the next step of what resources, what qualities, what skills, what competencies do I need to engage in order to even have that communication. Then we're at that penultimate step, what are the actions we're going to take, what are the steps that are perceptible to the senses. It's not just that we're going to talk about it, but when we agree on something, I take that responsibility and I go about it so that in that way we can create a bridge to that future of ours.
How to determine how effective the communication was?
Martin Hurych
If I simplify it a little bit, it almost happens at some meetings and yet the results are not there. So where is the other fault then? You feel like you're communicating them, you feel like people are nodding back, you feel like they get it, you walk away, a week later you ask where they've gone, and still nothing.
Tom Sova
That's what we do for a living. You can ask yourself the simple question of how effective your communication was and read the nonverbal communication of those people. We have 9 different patterns on sabotaging behavior that people will say yes, but they don't do it. You need to start digging closer and deeper and you need to understand those people. Nowadays, it's no longer enough to just tell people what to do and be results-oriented. You have to become a half- psychologist, which is what Bata said. When you were born, did you get a manual on how people work? No, so how do you motivate something if you don't know how it works? If we take a nuclear power plant, it's got a pretty big control panel, I need training first on what knob to touch, what knob not to touch, so it doesn't blow up under my ass. What we normally do in communications, we touch the knobs and hope it doesn't blow up, but it often does. Learn to reach for the button that will get those people moving, because there are incredible hidden costs. You make a deal and it still doesn't happen. Then people call us and we go and look at what's really going on, what's not being talked about in the first place, what are the patterns of behavior that we identify and what's the psychological pattern and then we need to break that.
What if we lack genuine concern for the other side?
Martin Hurych
You mentioned a sincere interest in the person in question. What I often see is that I have some manuals, now the question is what is their quality and where did they come from, but I have read some, I have been on some courses and it still doesn't work. I'm asking, do you know what the other person wants, do you know him perfectly, do you know him as a person? You named two things, communication and relationships. A lot of people in my bubble, I think, take it very dogmatically. Step by step I'll do it and it'll take hold, but there's not that interest in the person anymore. What do we do about it?
Tom Sova
We have a variety of solutions within our cognitive filters. One we call primary source, it's people, place, activity, thing, information. Most of the time people will focus on information and the activities we're going to do, but they don't have people in there. I remember a conversation I had with a CEO who has 400 people under him, and he said he doesn't enjoy the work. I asked him if he liked people at all and he said no. When you start a business and you want to start a dog pound, for example, it's nice to like dogs. So if you're working with people, it's good to like people. If you don't like people and your qualities are somewhere else, then hire someone who can work with those people and can bring that human factor in. I don't like all those manuals. When I was 15, I had a stack of Playboys next to my bed, but I basically learned nothing from that. You need to rehearse first, you screw up a couple of times, then you call someone who knows it, they teach you, then you need to rehearse some more and integrate that humanity in you. There's no other way to learn.
Martin Hurych
Maybe that's why they say in corporations that you are promoted to the extent of your abilities and what you can do. When I see the basis on which people leave a corporation, it's never that they're not professional enough, it's always about communicating that they didn't get some results through other people.
Tom Sova
I'd take it a little further. People in corporations are often promoted beyond their abilities. Then there's this very sad thing that happens in that company where I see every other HR manager or CEO that gets fired thinks they can coach and then they start their coaching practices in desperation. There they completely burn out, they can't make a quality business out of it or they never learned it and then what happens is they take what worked for them before and replicate it. That's kind of copy paste, copy paste. Imagine if you read a book and you wrote the first 5 chapters in the original and then you just did copy paste, copy paste and the book is 80 chapters long, that would be a terribly boring book. You need to keep developing, you need to develop that flexibility because those conditions in that society are also constantly changing. We live in fantastic times and it requires the development of a higher cognition to be able to be flexible there all the time.
How to eliminate hidden costs?
Martin Hurych
We have found a common cause of why hidden costs arise. The other half of the question we agreed on is how to eliminate them. So is it as simple as I put great communication in place and it will all get fixed?
Tom Sova
If it were that easy, everyone would do it. But it's not easy at all.
Martin Hurych
So what about it? I know what my hidden costs are and I know where I'm very likely to fall down, I need to learn to communicate better. Then what do I do to minimize those hidden costs?
Tom Sova
Companies, entrepreneurs, CEOs usually have already defined their goals, their KPIs and if they are very modern, they have OKRs, they have defined results and that's it. I say screw the results. Look at attitudes and look at behaviors. Going back to that example I was saying at the beginning, what is the attitude and what is the behavior of that marketer that they have such a poor conversion? He probably needs to change something in his communication. The moment I change that attitude and that behavior, those results can only happen.
So how do we remove those hidden costs? The first thing we always do, and there will be a bonus at the end of the episode, is Collective Discovery. We'll do an analysis where we take a completely revolutionary look at that organization, what are the patterns of behavior, what are the attitudes, what are the sabotaging behaviors, what are the fears that are there. If we can identify that, then we can eliminate those issues based on the development program. I tell people to stop training. My wife trains in corporations and she recently asked a client what she remembered from a previous training session. There was a lady with large breasts and that was all they remembered. No, it has to be transformational, because we don't train, we develop competence. So we need to look first at what competencies we need to develop there. Is it self-responsibility, is it listening, is it responsiveness, is it engagement? That's where we then use the neuro-linguistic programming method where we have hundreds of very effective intervention techniques that will lead to those transformations. We need to align those emotions and those thoughts and those behaviors together and that's done through a developmental program.
How to talk people out of the organization?
Martin Hurych
Going back a little further, you said you would get there and see what needed to be done. That's where I realize that in order to figure out what needs to be done, you have to get these people to communicate again. That means that those people, paradoxically, talk more openly and better to you than they do to their own management.
Tom Sova
It depends on the type of organisation. Personality characteristics and colours are probably known to all audiences and each colour needs to have a different approach. For example, if I take a strongly hierarchical organizational structure, they automatically need someone coming in from the outside to tell them what to do. But a different type of organization you need to communicate in a completely different way, just to lay out the field. You don't tell young people what to do, you need to lay out the sandbox for them and let them learn how to navigate the sandbox on their own. So there is no clear answer here.
Martin Hurych
I thought it was more that there was an interesting moment in that when someone from outside comes in, those people will confide in someone outside rather than inside the company. That then takes away the elimination of those hidden costs, doesn't it?
Tom Sova
Sometimes yes, sometimes no, it depends on the situation. You as a coach need to build that trust that the person will trust you. It doesn't always work out, because often people are afraid that somebody is going to snitch on them to that management. We always set very strict rules that what we say to each other stays between us as well, and we don't talk about it anymore, otherwise the person can't open up to you. 93% of communication is nonverbal. We have this corporate mask and we don't want to show anything. By putting on a mask, you are already communicating that you are afraid of something, that you are scared of something. It's up to us to take that out and eliminate it so you don't have to sit there like a robot wearing that corporate mask.
What if I can't read nonverbal communication?
Martin Hurych
You have to have a knack for this, you can learn something, but you have to have a knack for something. Just as people are more gifted and tougher at sports, people are softer and tougher at reading nonverbal communication. What if I'm the hard one, what if I just can't see it? Should I pack it in and sell the company and bail?
Tom Sova
I know a lot of them, good man in the wrong place. Make it so someone else is doing the communicating with those people. Few visionaries can also be a quality people manager. Historically, even Steve Jobs wasn't quite a people manager, but he was successful at what he did and he made it work. Make it different.
BONUS - Analysis of people's behaviour patterns in the company
Martin Hurych
This means that it's a good idea for these people to get a deuce into the firm very quickly, who will be responsible for translating my inventive chaos into order for the firm. You've set up a bonus in the firm, there's the picture I've been describing here, there's an analysis of those behavior patterns. So let's bait people so that when they finish listening to this podcast, they get somewhere, they run, the first thing they do is they run to the mouse and they start downloading.
Tom Sova
We'll give you Collective Discovery, which is a guide to how you can do that behavioral pattern analysis. Let's be a little more concrete because behavior patterns are so abstract. You see people who are passive, who are waiting, for example, or you also see people who are dominant, or people who are always complaining, coming up with problems but never coming up with solutions. In this way we have dozens of defined patterns of behavior so that it's also easy for the audience to analyze, where they can see what's currently happening in their organization. They get the whole blueprint there, and if they implement the blueprint for themselves and they still have questions, they can get in touch with us online and offline and we'll help them further.
Martin Hurych
So the result of this analysis is to have your head in your hands and have the problem analysed.
Tom Sova
This is not only the problem being analyzed, but also the solution to it. I'll also give you a guide on what to do about it, but it's not just about the organization, because the fish stinks from the head. What are you doing that makes the organization work the way it does, what are you worried about? What is it that you're avoiding, what are your fears that are there? Those are all happening at that subconscious level.
SUMMARY
Martin Hurych
This will be for strong characters. If, in the information noise that is created, there were to be 3 to 5 sentences left of this podcast that we would chisel in stone, what would they be?
Tom Sova
Listen to your heart and become yourself.
Martin Hurych
Amen, thank you very much.
Tom Sova
Thank you, Martin.
Martin Hurych
So you see, I'm almost at a loss for words. If Tom and I here today have moved you somewhere, shown you something, motivated you to do something, then we have done our job well. In that case, I'll repeat my plea from the beginning, make sure you subscribe so you don't miss another episode. Be sure to like, maybe even share with a friend who might find this episode helpful. Also check out www.martinhurych.com/zazeh, where at this point there's already a promised bonus hanging under this episode, which you should definitely download because when I saw it, it was like looking in the mirror. All I can do is keep my fingers crossed and wish you success, thanks.
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