"Prepare the company for the future state, not the current state. Otherwise it will catch up with you. Pay attention to communication within the company. People need to understand what's going on. And have courage!"
David Verner | CEO @ Pikito a.s.
There are some things that you take as 100% given. Like an e-shop is modern and a brick-and- mortar store is from the stone age. Well, then you find out that you belong in the stone age because... because an e-shop without a stone is just untapped potential.
I didn't want to believe it. I only go to brick-and-mortar stores in self-defense. And when I do, I go to a few of the tried-and-true ones. I just discovered a company that has the data and even a new business model to help e-shops with the brick-and-mortar thing. Innovative in one way or another. It will offer them Retail as a Service.
Ignition is about innovation. So even though retail is slightly outside the bubble, I decided to puncture the bubble after some time and invite David Verner, CEO of Pikito a.s., to tell me more. I asked the following ...
🔸 What is RaaS - Retail as a Service?
🔸 What pain points does Raas solve?
🔸 What's the market like to introduce a brand new idea?
🔸 What fuck-up was the most expensive?
🔸 Why Pikito is a technology company?
HOW TO INCREASE CONVERSIONS IN YOUR E-SHOP BY 15% (INTERVIEW TRANSCRIPT)
Martin Hurych
Hello. I'm Martin Hurych and this is another Ignition. Today's Zážeh will be breaking the classic bubble, today we will look a bit off the beaten track, but it will be all the more interesting. If you like what I'm doing here in Zážeh and not only in Zážeh, give a like or maybe a subscription. By doing so, you'll help me get through the social media algorithms and invite even more great guests like today's one. Today's guest is the CEO of Pikito, David Verner, hi.
David Verner
Hi, Martin, hello listeners.
What loss upset David the most?
Martin Hurych
Today, we'll look at how to build multichannel within e-commerce, we'll look at how a brand new RaaS category is pushing into the market, and we might even get into how it's expanding within Central and Eastern Europe. Before we start, I've read in my very thorough preparation that you're a very competitive person and that you don't like to lose, so I had a sneaky question. What's the one loss that really pissed you off lately?
David Verner
If I take trade in general, it's full of losses and generally there are more losses than wins.
Martin Hurych
But you are a football player too, we don't have to apply it to business, you are an athlete, you wrote that adrenaline must be splashing all around you, so maybe extend it to your private life.
David Verner
I'm a footballer, I don't like to say it publicly because there's a bit of a stigma around footballers that they're princesses and I don't think I've ever met a person who would say that a footballer is a clever head. So I'm not really bragging about it, it's more of a bit of information for those close to me and I'm not going to elaborate any further. In my private life, in sport, especially in football, it's actually very similar to my professional life. You can't win all the time, you often lose. When I was young, it used to eat me up a lot, I wanted to change it, but as you get older, it's more about playing to thirst, having a beer with the guys and it's actually a really nice filter. As soon as the sport comes up, you switch off at that point. He's on the field, he's just there with the gang, and I enjoy the social aspect of it. You've got a doctor there, a lawyer, a teacher, a bricklayer and it's awfully nice to deal with politics and stuff after those games and it's awfully fun in the final. It's a complete break from the world at home within the family and maybe even that job.
Which loss moved him the furthest?
Martin Hurych
Which loss do you think has moved you the most in your life?
David Verner
I don't know if it's a total loss, but when I started some professional careers, I was kind of searching because I didn't quite fit the typical concept. I was a high school kid, but it didn't quite fit and I didn't know what I wanted to do. Then when descriptives and Latin and compulsory subjects came crashing in, I thought I had no business being there. It was a struggle for me, so I changed a couple of grammar schools and finally found the right one when I discovered the Karlin Grammar School, which is one of the few that runs distance learning. You could only go there once a week for 6 hours and outside of that I normally went to work behind the bar at 18. I went to work as a waiter and kind of got a little bit ahead in life and kind of bounced around. The experience there was that you went there once a month anyway, just to find out what was going on and the cool thing was that the exam was once every six months. You sat for a week, crammed it in and had six months off, which for me was exactly what I was looking for.
Martin Hurych
Isn't that more of a win than a loss?
David Verner
At the end of the day, I guess so, but I think generally those losses all lead to some sort of win in the final. For me it was a great experience and I think it helped me a lot in the future. When I was 25, my peers were maybe starting those careers after some college and I had already been working for 6 years. That waiter was a great experience for me because I know I never want to do that again. I have a huge admiration for all the people who work in hospitality because it's a huge job.
What is RaaS - Retail as a Service?
Martin Hurych
I said here in the introduction that we will introduce a new model, RaaS. What is it and where did it come from and why did it come from?
David Verner
I guess it just kind of came out of our heads. We were wondering what to call the whole concept because when we looked and tried really hard all over the world, Europe, Asia, America, we couldn't find anything like that. So we thought, we have SaaS, it's such a common thing now, so we'll put RaaS in there. Even in the Czech language it sounds nice, it's kind of resonant and it's Retail as a Service. It's exactly the same principle based on some monthly fee that the person pays and we run some type of service for them. In our case it's this retail, brick and mortar store.
What kind of pain does RaaS solve?
Martin Hurych
A lot of times here we talk about how a product or a good business has to solve some customer pain. So what does RaaS solve?
David Verner
RaaS solves what is either completely unaffordable for you or significantly expensive in terms of finances and especially time. If you take purely just HR, that's a huge topic, getting a good quality team in there that ideally won't change, they'll know the products, it's not easy. If I take the e- commerce in general and those e-stores, they usually have some structure and the retail one usually completely jumps off the page. It's a whole other dimension and you have to have a retail manager to take care of that from the top, to deal with those contracts, to deal with those employees and so on. The upfront costs are huge, whether it's opening the store, the furniture and the staff. Before you get it going, generally in retail they say if you make zero in the first year, it's fantastic, it's a bomb. Then, of course, when it climbs up, starts to be a successful business, it's even better and that's where you can say it's a success.
Martin Hurych
So we are talking about helping primarily e-commerce players to rent a showroom and dispensary as a service. Do I understand correctly?
David Verner
You could call it that. It's interesting that each partner sees it differently. Some people see it as a sample room because they have air purifiers and get calls from customers 5 times a week about how it's too noisy. It's not really possible to deal with that over the phone. Somebody's got a turnaround, they want to make money, so they're spinning products, it's a classic product that you need over and over again, in 3 weeks, in a month you finish it. It could be some food supplements, it's very common. Then it's also products that you want to touch. I'll take some underwear, bedding, clothes, you want to try it on. I'm the classic 183 cm, some normal weight, so I fit in relatively, but still, sometimes it doesn't fit and it's very annoying for me to get packages from the e-shop, I try it on and now I have to pack it again, go to the post office or the parcel office and send it back. I don't want to do that, and it's significantly more comfortable for me to go to the store, try on sizes, and then know what size fits me from a particular brand. It will help that e-store tremendously with retention.
The customer then has no need to look elsewhere, but goes to the clear brand.
Why should I have a brick-and-mortar store as an e-shop?
Martin Hurych
What I observe in the market, so significantly more frequent representation is that I already have a shop and I build an e-shop to it. I like to split it between those who come to you as customers and their customers. As an e-shopper who wanted to avoid everything, who wanted no brick-and- mortar stores, why would I even be interested in opening a sample shop or showroom with you now?
David Verner
For me, it's about the efficiency. When I use marketing spend today, I use it purely online, but in that online, whether I take Instagram, Facebook, whatever, it's not just the online customer that's there. It's very likely that the offline customer is represented there as well. Then if I can't offer him that offline environment, then I'm throwing that money towards him in a completely useless, absolutely ineffective way. The customer likes the more personal approach, he likes to be able to touch, taste, smell, feel, feel.
Martin Hurych
Do we have an idea of the percentage of people who will never buy from an e-shop because they prefer to go somewhere to smell it, to feel it?
David Verner
If I take some traffic to an e-shop, for example, 70% of the traffic to an e-shop is acquisition, that's pure acquisition, and then 20% of that 70% is the traffic for which it's crucial whether the shop is there or not. To what extent it's about them actually going there to buy it is another thing, because then other things factor into it. Some people go there to see it, to feel it, to try it out, for some it's a guarantee of credibility. We see it in the data today with those partners. If I have a shop in Bratislava and I'm from Košice, that customer probably won't go there in his lifetime, but it's still for any semblance of credibility. Nowadays, when we are bombarded by Temu and Trendyol and other brands that are not completely local, that trust in the partner that provides me with the product is fading a bit. It happens that packages don't arrive, there are problems with claims and so on. That's where it makes it much easier when the store has a brick-and-mortar store, because that person always has some physical point of contact in that country, which is terribly important.
Martin Hurych
You said that I drive traffic to the e-shop and 10% to 20% are those who need to have at least the impression of some physical potential contact. Is that right?
David Verner
Maybe I wouldn't put it that narrowly, but it's such a mixture of those different attributes. If I take one partner from the practice, for him half of all the packages that go to Bratislava are picked up at that store. If I take it nationally within Slovakia, it's something like 15%, 15% of all packages are picked up there. When I have the practical experience of physically going there, of course, it's much easier to get it into your head. If I take it in a purely pragmatic way, that e-shop today for those regular people is some website and whether that person is ordering on Trendyol, on Amazon or on some particular e-shop, at the end of the day they don't care. There's just that when a person has that physical location and they're already linking it to something, then it's significantly easier to get back with that retention. Today, we've already tracked that it's something like 12% on average. More than 12% of those customers who buy then come back for that repeat purchase, which I think is already an interesting number.
What will the dispensing station bring me as an end customer?
Martin Hurych
I'll confess one thing. We talked before the shoot and we had a meeting where you explained what you were doing. In some ways I'm completely outside your bubble and I want to ask you something that I don't understand at all. Why would I go pick something up at your place when there are 4 drop boxes in my township and I don't need anyone to do it?
David Verner
It's very colourful and it's not just about that one thing. Naturally, we don't hit all the customers, so that now all of Prague and people from Cologne fly to one shop. It's about the fact that you download some of the base around. We can talk about the advantages of being open from 9 to 9 every day of the year except holidays. Generally there's things like service, so a complete claims, returns, the whole service thing is handled in one place. I go in, I drop it on the table and I leave and I don't deal with it. It's a huge time saver for me, I don't have to print any returns anywhere.
Then, of course, there's the nice stuff that I can open the package, see what fits, feel the materials, and take only what's important to me. We do some picking from Pikita's position, the partner picks the packages for us, and then we pick them back in returns. There is some environmental thinking that is trendy nowadays and for us it is just a tiny package. It's about the partner taking 20 orders, putting them in one box and sending that to us. There's one box and significant savings in packaging material.
I would go back to the fact that the huge value is in increasing the conversion rate on that e-store. Today we're dogmatically going after those partners, sometimes it's a little bit challenging to pull that out of them,because obviously for them it's an activity that they have to spend some time with, it's not a moment, but we're pushing that data out of them so that we have it and we can be relevant to that market. If a person picks up a conversion rate in the cart today by 2, 3%, that's great. But if he raises it by 12, 15, that's a different world, and that's what we're doing today.
How does a brick-and-mortar store increase the conversion rate of an e-shop?
Martin Hurych
Does that mean that having a physical location, even one in the country, raises conversion by 15%?
David Verner
Yes. I can say that across those partners we can quite conscientiously be between 10% and 15%, I can vouch for that. Within that base around that shop, it's a hair more, but if I take that average across the country, it's just a matter of being able to work with it a little bit. The presence of that store has a huge impact on those customers. For example, if I have a rotating banner on my homepage, it's nice to mention that store because it hits those people and it helps.
What to prepare for when expanding abroad?
Martin Hurych
You have expanded, so far to Slovakia and Romania, you have more spectacular plans. Now, I'm not concerned with how the different countries are behaving. What has surprised you in some more general terms when expanding outside of the Czech Republic, what should people who are going into other fields outside of the border prepare for?
David Verner
It might make it sound like people shouldn't do it, but I like it when they try it, because when they try it and they get into a conversation with us and they try it with us, those are my favorite partners. Because they have a tremendous appreciation for the tremendous amount of work behind what one really has with it. Slovakia is still It's okay, because there's a tiny language barrier, but we'll get along, we'll manage. But Romania is a bit of a bureaucratic jungle, because they really shuffle the person around and if they don't have a Romanian executive, they're screwed. You go to the office, you want to set up a company and they want a contract from the owner of the building where you're going to operate. The person goes there and the owner asks him what kind of company he has. All of a sudden it's like a merry-go- round. We were spinning like that for a couple of months, but it had to stop because otherwise we would never have gotten into more countries.
So we hired a local store manager/country manager within that store and it was off and running. My colleague is Romanian, so she came in and within a couple of weeks it was done.
Does RaaS also make sense for traditional shops?
Martin Hurych
Have you thought of offering RaaS outside of e-commerce to traditional retail? I think it's the perfect thing for expansion.
David Verner
We have so many ideas and of course this is one of them. But you have to try a little bit to keep some focus. If you spread it out too much, it's very difficult to manage it and to determine the direction. Of course, there are more than one way to go. The initial idea was with e-commerce, because it was terribly challenging for those e-shops to even get their store within that e-shop to zero, to have any physical presence at all.
What's the market like to introduce a brand new idea?
Martin Hurych
Whether we call it a new idea or a more modern innovation, one thing interests me terribly. You said you've been doing some research and you don't think anyone is doing RaaS at the moment, which opens up a bunch of possibilities. But what is it like to push something into the market that the market doesn't really know?
David Verner
It's difficult to evangelize that market because of course you say RaaS and nobody knows what you're talking about. It's not entirely easy, of course, it's about learning to explain what it is. Because when one loads the information all at once, sometimes people don't quite catch on because they've never come into contact with it. When I try to put it in the most soft way I can, it's just that they have a shop that they don't have to worry about. They share that store with other top e- commerce players, which is then awfully nice because it's not just your customer that goes there. Today, we're still in that
non-competitive environment within those individual partners amongst themselves and my thought is also that I would like to do specials at some point.
If I want to go to the store and I'm going there for 5, 10 minutes, I can actually go anywhere anytime just fine, but if it was already half an hour, I wouldn't go that way for one store. But if there's 8 of them, I'll go right away. I guess I'd compare it to IKEE, they're going to take that whole park and cram all these other stores in there, like SCANquilt, and that's going to create that huge base of those customers, that community around that. As soon as I need bedding, I automatically go there. That's something that I think we can aim for and that I think makes tremendous sense.
What about the stock?
Martin Hurych
Do you also keep a warehouse for these partners, or is it really just a showroom?
David Verner
There is also the possibility to keep a warehouse, some people don't even need the warehouse because they don't have so many products. We put all the stuff we have on display in the shop and it's about having some restock, maybe once a week. We can work today based on stupid Excel, even with Excel we can handle it and if someone wants to make it really nice and pretty, of course some of those APIs. There's already people playing around with things like that, if I fall below stock 5, an order is automatically created, accumulated in a week, shipped.
Martin Hurych
That means that realistically, within the limited range, he really has a shop with everything from you, it's not just a sample shop.
David Verner
That's right. There's an option to put some stock in there as well, but we can take someone's whole range because they only have a few products. Somebody has 10,000 SKUs, so we go classic Pareto rule, what works best and that's where it's also about that partner's strategy. Someone sells where the biggest turnover is, what's spinning and selling, someone wants to showcase something new, a new product, some innovation. Everybody finds something of their own in that, and then naturally it depends on that, that somebody wants a bigger store, a smaller store, and one balances on where it meets best.
How common is cross-selling within RaaS?
Martin Hurych
How often does it happen that I go to buy a toy and take a pan from a completely different e-shop that is there with you on the same area?
David Verner
Surprisingly often. I often stand somewhere in a corner, pretend to be a customer and watch how people walk and behave. That's very important for me to understand the mindset of that typical customer of ours, or our partner. They usually fly in there, they go to pick up an order, for example, they jump up to the kiosk, they enter their PIN, they pick it up, and now they're waiting that minute for their package. They turn around and all of a sudden they're wondering where they are because it's such a small mall. There's like 10, 12 different categories and something of everything. There's erotica, there's toys, there's some men's cosmetics, so there's something for everybody.
Which fuck-up was the most expensive?
Martin Hurych
When you're paving the way for a new idea or a new system or a new market approach, you're going to charge up your nose a lot of times. What was your most expensive fuck-up?
David Verner
I think we didn't quite hit that exact customer base at the beginning. When it first started, the idea was that we'd make some furniture, we'd do it in some place, some space, and see what happened. Most of these startups go, we luckily somehow made it because we tried Prague, it worked great, we jumped over a hill, Slovakia, it worked again, so we tried Romania, where it also clicked. So we believed that the concept made sense and now, in hindsight, we know x things. What we know is that there was a huge thing where we maybe even maybe didn't listen a little bit at the beginning and that's multi-brand. We have a brand today, Pikito, which is quite well known in B2B today, but we're not known in B2C because that work hasn't been done there. We didn't know how to position ourselves properly. We didn't know if we should have a colour logo and the others black and white, those partners are quite important, they have distinctive logos and those customers tend to follow those partners, they don't follow us completely. That's a big balancing act to do, which I don't think I've done quite happily. We're currently in a bit of a rebranding phase because our current logo feels a bit discounted and we now know that our partners tend to be more of the high-end ones. There's a push for that quality, service, speed of delivery and those things that I think generally make them survive in that market.
Martin Hurych
So what's the decision, is Pikito going to be like a new mail order place where I go to try on 12 t- shirts and take one? Do you want to become the big brand yourself that all the e-shoppers will go after, or do you want to stand out, be that name only in B2B and push individual brands externally for me as a customer?
David Verner
I'd love to tell you how it's going to be 100%, but we're in some of that phase right now and the branding is a discipline in itself. I may think something, but I may think it very wrong, and I'd love to get advice from someone who's super expert at it. Relatively, I think I understand some things about IT commerce, I have various overlaps in the retail side of things as well, but we have reserves in branding and I'm curious myself to see what the pros in that field come to us with and where we go from here. I think today it's all about those partners because they have those strong brands, they have those strong social networks where they have tens of thousands of followers. In terms of the future, I can't judge, because if we move forward in, say, 4, 5 years, I believe that those stores will be maybe lower tens within the Czech Republic, if things go nicely. The base of those partners is the biggest here, so I believe that there can be 5, 6, 7 stores here and in the Czech Republic, which is perfectly fine.
Of course, it's about the locations. We're still in some retail parks today and we've found through those partners that those parks are fine, they work, but I think you can take it a level further. Today we are looking at some A-type centres like Chodov and we are going to some total high streets. Now we've even got a shop in Brno right on Náměstí Svobody, which I dare say is probably the best shopping location you can choose. There are some roads that we take.
I'm gonna go back to the fuck-up, because I've gotten away from it a little bit. I don't think we got the furniture quite right because it's not where we're going with the setup. It's white, there's these silver moldings in the back, it's not that clean nice minimalist design. The fit out of that store is important to us, so we want to go for the black detailing and I believe it's going to be nice.
Martin Hurych
So are you going down the road to greater perceived luxury?
David Verner
I'm a little afraid of the word luxury because sometimes it can drive people away a little bit because they're afraid it's expensive. I would probably call it more high-end. I want those customers now, globally, to come to us not because it's the cheapest, but because they know they're going to get great service, they're going to be fine there. They're going to come in there, there's good music playing, it smells good and it's a customer experience and that's what we want to provide to those partners. We primarily live off of that B2B partnership today, those fees, and I want to give those partners that 1:1 to their own store. I want that service to be great, I want those salespeople to be great trained, I want those customers to love coming back, I want it to be that great customer experience.
Martin Hurych
So the final is a mall within a mall. The braniacs who are listening or watching us right now very likely already know how it turned out or will soon, so let us know your feedback if what they ultimately chose turned out well.
David Verner
I'll be glad for all the criticism, give it to us, we need a lot of feedback, because by discovering something completely new, nobody has done it before, so that's the only way we can move forward.
Why is Pikito a technology company?
Martin Hurych
One of the reasons you're here is because this is a podcast for engineering, technology and manufacturing companies. When we first met, I asked you directly if you felt more like a retail company or a tech company, and you said tech company. So tell me what's technology about it, because I see a bunch of shelves and a store. What's behind the scenes, why can it work the way it does?
David Verner
To make it work, to be able to bring together a cloud of partners, where everyone is working on a different solution and now we can talk about e-shop solutions, ERP, you need a sophisticated infrastructure. We do it in-house and we have a regular higher level ERP for that, but then we build it bespoke. It solves some kiosk system, it solves then a TV system for that, nowadays we have some display on those stores where the person can go straight through that e-shop. The partners send him data on those packages, they send him data on what he has in that store, there are price changes happening, there are electronic price tags, and I think we're doing pretty well today. Every step of the way we try to think about it, we don't have 3 stores, we have 20 stores because otherwise it would bite us in the ass tremendously. You'd have a hard time chasing it then. So we're still trying to set it up like that to make it work well and to be able to do it in a relatively small team. Leaving aside the stores as such, where of course it jumps up to those s t o r e managers, the sales people, so today we're something like 8, 10 people in the team.
Martin Hurych
You write all the IT background in-house?
David Verner
We have a partner who helps us with that, but we have two people there for us. One handles the product itself, and I do a little bit of that, and then there's a person who handles the IT and enters those specific requirements of that execution. That's the person that it relatively revolves around, and then we have that execution from someone else.
Martin Hurych
At this stage, I see in a lot of firms that it's important to choose the right level of where I'm aligning myself with the partner and where I'm saying flat out that the partner has to go into my system. How did you get out of that? I'm assuming you have investors, so you need to show some traction very quickly, you want to be successful yourself, you wanted to get to 30 under 30. On the other hand, you don't want to undercut yourself, you're building a system for 20 or more stores, even if you only have 3. How do you think about that or how do you get those partners to accept that they pretty much have to adapt to you?
David Verner
It's about the fact that today we are going down the path of those integrations to those major players, e-commerce platforms or ERP. We can connect to anybody today with just stupid Excel, through some basic FTP server, which pretty much anybody can do today and it's functional. That's fine, but it's missing those nice features that, for example, in that Romania, we can grab the goods locally from that store and we can send them locally by D+1, normal transport, or by D+0 courier. You can't do that without that API and that's where we can go against that by connecting to those individual partners. It's a bit of lobbying with those partners, of course, but it's worthwhile for us. That's maybe why we have the big partners, because paradoxically we can also help the smaller ones. Thanks to the big ones.
partners who have a little bit of a say with their provider or supplier, we'll get to it and we'll be able to push some of that connectivity to us.
Martin Hurych
Does this mean that customized e-shops have no chance with you?
David Verner
I'm sure they do. It's a given there that when they have it customized, they have it kind of in-house, it's not some boxed solution that you have to look for exactly how to get there. Here
it can be done by direct and it is of course the easiest, there the connect is very easy to do.
Summary
Martin Hurych
If from what we have said here today, beyond RaaS, in terms of innovation, business thinking, adapting to the environment, mapping the market to minimize the fuck-ups, if we were to pick 3 to 5 sentences, what would they be?
David Verner
I was talking about the fact that if I don't want to make the company to a certain size and I don't want more, then I need to think about the steps ahead, otherwise it will kill me. You need to prepare for that and prepare the organization so that the people are already living in that and you educate them in that. Because then when somebody new comes in and it's not going to be 3 outlets, it's going to be 10 outlets, they've already gone into a working system and they already know how it works and it's going, we're not getting stuck in it.
The second thing that comes to mind is the significantly open communication within that organization. For us, a lot of it is also because we have a lot of people who are in some kind of hybrid mode. Sometimes they're in the office, sometimes they're not, especially the retail managers are always somewhere and it's good to have some channel where I'm sharing at least the grit without some of the greater detail. It's nice to have those overlaps and to understand what's going on where and then when you want to go into that extra detail, to have a project tool where you're already dealing with the individual tasks.
In general, I would also mention courage, because when you start something, you have to be very courageous, and I have a lot of admiration for everyone who goes for it. I've tried it myself and it's a blast. Then when you want to mix in a little bit of personal life, some sports hobbies and maybe even that family and he doesn't want that family to be punished for it, so it's a challenge. I'm experiencing it myself right now, I have two young kids and it's been really tough the last six months, but it's been a joy. My partner and I have an ambition to have 4 kids, so we'll see how we get on.
Martin Hurych
So keep up the good work in producing kids and new outlets. Fingers crossed that it keeps going and that in a few years RaaS is not just heard within Pikita, but is a new category that you have broken into the world.
David Verner
I hope so. Thank you so much for having me, and I hope that as it was a break from the normal bubble that's out there, it was something new for those listeners and they learned something interesting.
Martin Hurych
Today we peeked outside the standard bubble. I don't think it was a bad thing at all, because even though you may not be a B2B partner of RaaS, we are all 100% B2C, potential clients of RaaS. If that's what happened, we did our job well. In that case, I'll ask you again to subscribe, like or forward to a friend, a buddy, a colleague so we can do outreach and push Ignition to as many people as possible. Check out www.martinhurych.com/zazeh, where at the moment for this episode there's a bonus that I'm still going to knock out of David because we got chatting and I forgot to tell him about it. I have no choice but to keep my fingers crossed and wish you success, thanks.